Curse

Aldawg Thanes · Nov 11, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I am not trying to argue if my build is good or not, what I am writing about is what bowstring to use in my build. I generally run a build with Broad Head Arrow as my elite. Up until now I have been using a silencing bow string to extend the duration of daze by 33%. Just the other day I was thinking about it and BHA has a 15 sec recharge and at Marksmanship lvl13 which is what i normally run, daze lasts for 18 seconds, longer than the recharge of BHA, so presumably I could reapply daze before it runs out on an enemy. With the silencing bow string it is extended to 24 seconds. My question is, is there any reason that I am not seeing for me to stick with the silencing bow string. I have heard that on some bosses daze lasts for a shorter duration, so either way I will keep a second bow with a silencing bowstring on me.

Instead of silencing bowstring I would put in a Sundering bowstring for the extra damage. I know that in the end vampiric bowstrings cause more damage, but frankly I am too lazy to continually switch out my bow when I am not attacking, also many times I forget to switch it out.

So in essence if you can only choose between a Silencing and a Sundering bowstring with a BHA build, which one is better?

Maybe I should specify that this is purely for PVE

Artisan Archer · Nov 11, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I would still go with the silencing, as you will be able to daze more than one target(group, if you bring epidemic) for more then half the time.
The damage sundering adds is very small, compared to the extra daze you can spread with a silencing bowstring

Balky · Nov 11, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Personally i go with a hornbow with a 20/20 string over a vamp bow. hornbow has 10% armour pen built in, give a 30% armour pen on some attacks.

If you`re using BHA then keep the silencing bow, like anything though a lot depends on where you proportion your points, if its solely marks and expertise, you could always drop the BHA for magebane, add concussion shot and throw in several more high damage ones, like keen, forked arrow, and use the disrupting accuracy prep so you interrupt on any crit ( works superbly with keen )

Tyla · Nov 11, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Sundering is terrible on a bow.

Vampiric, but if you're not going to use anything other than the ones you wanted... Sundering. Put it this way, if your enemy doesn't die before the BHA condition hasn't got it's full duration complete, your team is probably incredibly terrible.

Oh, and Disrupting Accuracy is a terrible skill. Specifically placed interrupts > random interrupts, even on an Assassin.

The Meth · Nov 11, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Put it this way, if your enemy doesn't die before the BHA condition hasn't got it's full duration complete, your team is probably incredibly terrible.

Please, tell me how you are killing these guys in under 10 seconds. You absolutely need silencing for all those half condition boss battles. Just get a vampiric and a silencing bow. Surely you have the extra 5k to pick up the second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

Personally i go with a hornbow with a 20/20 string over a vamp bow. hornbow has 10% armour pen built in, give a 30% armour pen on some attacks.

If you`re using BHA then keep the silencing bow, like anything though a lot depends on where you proportion your points, if its solely marks and expertise, you could always drop the BHA for magebane, add concussion shot and throw in several more high damage ones, like keen, forked arrow, and use the disrupting accuracy prep so you interrupt on any crit ( works superbly with keen )

Enormous failure.

Captain Bulldozer · Nov 11, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I'd go with Silencing... if for no other reason than to make your daze last longer on bosses. Plus is works like a charm with epidemic and a barrage ranger in your party.

Moonlit Azure · Nov 11, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

Personally i go with a hornbow with a 20/20 string over a vamp bow. hornbow has 10% armour pen built in, give a 30% armour pen on some attacks.

If you`re using BHA then keep the silencing bow, like anything though a lot depends on where you proportion your points, if its solely marks and expertise, you could always drop the BHA for magebane, add concussion shot and throw in several more high damage ones, like keen, forked arrow, and use the disrupting accuracy prep so you interrupt on any crit ( works superbly with keen )

Hornbows have a high arc and a slow refire rate. Not a good anything bow.

Balky · Nov 11, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Of course Meth, there`s only ever one skillset to use and one way to do anything right? Only had my ranger char for 3 1/2 years so obviously i know nothing about using one.

The Meth · Nov 11, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

In that case you are even more pitiful. My ranger is half as old yet still better then yours. There may be more then one way to play a ranger, but everything you suggested is downright horrible. I could go through a point by point description of how bad it is but lecturing crappy players is starting to weary me. Someone else please do the honors.

the savage nornbear · Nov 11, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

Of course Meth, there`s only ever one skillset to use and one way to do anything right? Only had my ranger char for 3 1/2 years so obviously i know nothing about using one.

Obviously, sundering on Ranger is a bad plan.

Tyla · Nov 11, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Please, tell me how you are killing these guys in under 10 seconds. You absolutely need silencing for all those half condition boss battles. Just get a vampiric and a silencing bow. Surely you have the extra 5k to pick up the second.

Fair enough point, although I really don't bother at all so I guess it's partly my laziness and C-Spacability when it comes to PvE... whatever that means.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Nov 11, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Meth speaks the truth,
Magebane is an alright skill in PVE but is far surpassed by BHA as not many monsters will remove daze and then all there spells are interrupted, sure it can inturpt other things but those are rarely a problem (such as skills/shouts, even then Dshot)
Concussion is also not very good, while it does daze it costs alot of energy, even with expertise at 14 (and if you are running 16 you are an idiot) and will run you out after a few applications, plus you have to be a have decent interrupter for it to take effect.
Keen Arrow..meh not very optimal. Relays on chance...not a good choice
Forked is a joke.
Disrupting is a failure as it is randomly interrupting an once again relaying on CHANCE, you would never interrupt anything half decent.
All and all I could out interrupt you with BHA/DShot then fill my bar with ele nuke skills and probally out damage you.

_Nihilist_ · Nov 11, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

@ OP: Go with the Silencing String if you are too lazy to swap. It helps loads vs. Bosses (half Condition length reduction) and in HM, and and the only downside to it is that you aren't getting +5 Vamp damage per shot. Honestly, even if you are too lazy to swap, you healers (be they Hench/Hero/Player) shouldn't mind healing a pesky -2hp/sec while out of combat.

@ Balky:

This:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Hornbows have a high arc and a slow refire rate. Not a good anything bow.

is the reason that a 20/20 Sundering Hornbow is not going to do well. Not because Sundering is crap (which it is, except for Spike teams, but we're talking PvE here, not PvP), not because your experience counts for nothing (well, tbh it doesn't, except to you), but because with a high arc and slow refire rate (the counterbalance for that 10% passive penetration) you aren't going to fire or hit enough shots to make that 10%+20% penetration proc. End of story.

Get over yourself. You can spend 3 and a half years doing terribly, but until you hit the unforgiving Wall that is truth, you'd never know it. Balky, say hello the Wall. You just hit it. You got sat down, the Wall didn't move. Have a nice day.

Fay Vert · Nov 11, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

You don't just choose the bow for one skill, what is on the rest of your bar? I usually carry poison and very sometimes bleeding, so having strings to match can make sense when you are runing BHA in areas where the extra daze duration makes no difference. In PvE, you can poison a lot while BHA is recharging.

Finally, you have 4 weapons slots, use them.

Aldawg Thanes · Nov 12, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Thanks guys for all the input. I will continue with my silencing bowstring, however I may start bringing along a vampiric bow just to see how things go, you guys may have convinced my to get over my laziness. Also I may go sell my sundering bowstrings, lol. Thanks again.

Quaker · Nov 12, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

My 2 cents:

- There are many ways to play a Ranger. There is NO best way. There is NO best bow.

- Vampiric is not better than sundering - or, at least, not better enough to make any real difference. In order to show any difference, you have to fire thousands (yes, thousands) of shots and total up the damage.

- For most of PvE, things will die before the 18 seconds it takes for BHA to wear off, especially if you increase the damage you do during that 18 seconds by using a Sundering or Vamp bow. It would be useful to have a bow with a silencing string for use in those few cases where a longer daze would help, but not as the primary bow.
Same thing for Poisonous or Barbed bow.

- Splinter Weapon and Epidemic are overrated. Not as good in practice as they appear on paper.

P.s - 3 1/2 years - 22 titles including Lengendary Vanquish (without Ursan).

MisterB · Nov 12, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

My 2 cents:

- There are many ways to play a Ranger. There is NO best way. There is NO best bow.

- Vampiric is not better than sundering - or, at least, not better enough to make any real difference. In order to show any difference, you have to fire thousands (yes, thousands) of shots and total up the damage.

- For most of PvE, things will die before the 18 seconds it takes for BHA to wear off, especially if you increase the damage you do during that 18 seconds by using a Sundering or Vamp bow. It would be useful to have a bow with a silencing string for use in those few cases where a longer daze would help, but not as the primary bow.
Same thing for Poisonous or Barbed bow.

- Splinter Weapon and Epidemic are overrated. Not as good in practice as they appear on paper.

P.s - 3 1/2 years - 22 titles including Lengendary Vanquish (without Ursan).

1. Statement of opinion expressed as fact.

2. Vampiric is in fact better. People have already fired those thousands of arrows to show this. Vampiric is especially useful with multiple arrow attacks in Hard mode. The only time I consider Sundering is on a hero because they can't swap.

3. True with respect to Silencing and Barbed, but not Poisonous. Poison mod is useful in PvP, or anytime you use [[Apply Poison] so you can spread it to as many targets as possible, and still have your first target poisoned when you renew. Silencing mod will generally not matter except for bosses with half condition duration, or against mobs with condition removal.

4. Splinter overrated? What?

P.S. Keep that for the "Post your title in progress" thread. Not relevant.

Balky · Nov 12, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker;

My 2 cents:

- There are many ways to play a Ranger. There is NO best way. There is NO best bow.

- Vampiric is not better than sundering - or, at least, not better enough to make any real difference. In order to show any difference, you have to fire thousands (yes, thousands) of shots and total up the damage.

- For most of PvE, things will die before the 18 seconds it takes for BHA to wear off, especially if you increase the damage you do during that 18 seconds by using a Sundering or Vamp bow. It would be useful to have a bow with a silencing string for use in those few cases where a longer daze would help, but not as the primary bow.
Same thing for Poisonous or Barbed bow.

- Splinter Weapon and Epidemic are overrated. Not as good in practice as they appear on paper.

P.s - 3 1/2 years - 22 titles including Lengendary Vanquish (without Ursan).

Someone who speaks sense aside from myself, as for the difference between bow types, i`ve tested my 20/20 hornbow, a 20/20 longbow, vamp bow and zealous with exactly the same skillset and attribute settings on the zaishen damage master, the hornbow came out ahead of the longbow by a second ! Time of death, 8 seconds .

Moonlit Azure · Nov 12, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

How is splinter weapon overrated? I find it nearly as essential as D-shot on a a barrage bar, and if your unable to fit it on your bar, put it on a hero's.

The Meth · Nov 12, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Splinter weapon isn't overrated, but having it on a ranger's bar is. If you are casting splinter weapon on recharge you effectively lose all 3 pips of ranger energy regeneration, meaning you are quickly running into a deficient if you are also using interrupts/support skills constantly (and you should be). At the same time a ritualist can cast a splinter weapon which is 2 to 3 times more powerful and at the same time has energy left over to power a very respectable amount of defence through restoration.

Now, onto the sundering vs everything else discussion.

Vampiric gives +5 damage. Assuming a bow have +15% from weapon mods and +20% customization bonus, the bow will deal about 29.66 damage average.

Now, against a 60 armor opponent Vampiric will give about a 16% damage increase over base damage. 20% armor penetration = 12 armor loss, which equates to about a 23% increase in damage. But wait, it only happens 1/5th of the time, so the average damage increase is only 4.6%. This brings sundering to about 1.3 extra damage per attack. Vampiric damage of 5 > 1.3 sundering damage

Surely armor penetration works better against higher armors though, right? Lets take warrior armor, 100 AL. At this point you reduce the enemy armor by 20. Thats a 41% damage increase! OMFG! But wait, the damage increase applies only to the arrow base damage. Since the base damage is only 14.83 (100 armor = half damage compared to 60 armor), your total damage increase is still only 14.83 base damage * .41 armor modification * 1/5 chance of sundering working = 1.2 extra damage per attack. Meanwhile the armor ignoring vampiric is still plugging away at 5 extra damage per attack.

Now, hornbow vs others is even easier. Hornbows have 10% armor penetration. That means vs AL 60 they improve damage by about 10% and against AL 100 they improve by about 18%. Meanwhile shortbows and flatbows fire arrows 35% faster, dealing 35% more damage. The only time a hornbow is good is when a ranger is spiking.

Sundering sucks. It sucks even worse on the second lowest base damage weapon of the game, and it sucks enormously more when you are giving yourself a decreased attack speed to get it. Would you still like to debate the rest of your stupid ideas now?